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Forum Thread: Word Viewer

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bjm__ Word Viewer
Member 13th Aug, 2010 03:26
Ranking: 64
Posts: 374
User Since: 9th Mar, 2009
System Score: 100%
Location: US
Last edited on 13th Aug, 2010 03:27

Please see resolved / closed Thread > http://secunia.com/community/forum/thread/show/508...
I may have closed above to soon...
All the Abiword links to join the user group and webmaster are returned.
I tried to subscribe to AbiWord: User's Mailing List >
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
abiword-user-request@abiword.snt.utwente.nl
SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
host abiword.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.149.216]:
550 5.7.1 HTML not allowed. Configure your mail program properly
I tried to contact webmaster >
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
webmaster@abiword.snt.utwente.nl
SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
host abiword.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.149.216]:
550 5.7.1 HTML not allowed. Configure your mail program properly
----------------------------------------
I tried links direct from Yahoo & Hotmail email accounts and from Vista mail through Yahoo...all are returned ????
------------------------------
I did find > http://www.officeviewers.com/
which appears to be viable substitute for bloated M$ Office Word Viewer.
I need some test files for the Supported file formats: listed @ http://www.officeviewers.com/
Anyone know where I may source test files....

Thanks
bjm-

Post "RE: Word Viewer" has been selected as an answer.
Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 13th Aug, 2010 12:14
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Last edited on 13th Aug, 2010 12:17
Hello bjm ,

My neighbours are very sorry to hear of your predicament . They had not tried to sign up before now , but we just tried both to "subscribe" and to contact the webmaster and Google mail gave us the same Mail Advisory daemon rejections that you received :((

They picked "Abi" because they also liked the name , it's Dutch and has a conveniently matching colour scheme ; they are happy and no problems to date (crossed fingers :)))

Text Viewer 2010 looks interesting ; but we can't help with locating the files . Will follow you to see what else transpires .

Take care

Anthony

PS : they send you a "bisou" , so you should feel a lot better ***:))

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 13th Aug, 2010 17:54
Score: 64
Posts: 374
User Since: 9th Mar 2009
System Score: 100%
Location: US
Last edited on 13th Aug, 2010 17:59
Hello Anthony Wells
Thank you with a cherry on top for your continued interest...
I was convinced my ISP/Email clients had thrown a wobbly and that evil gremlins had taken residence ....
Geez, Imagine that > the same Mail Advisory daemon rejections that I received.
And no obvious way to contact vendor... how bizarre ?

Might you know (or your neighbours / neighbors) if Abiword supports Office 2007 - 2010 file types. My initial impression of the homepage upon closer review has been dampened. I'll play with Abiword just for fun...but, how odd that such a popular app has not updated their site and has mail server issues.

All the daemon stuff is over my pay grade.
I was hoping to test http://www.officeviewers.com/ and dump Word Viewer and all it's baggage and security holes.
Maybe someone else will chime in...even thought about openoffice...but, from what I've read openoffice is much more than I need & openoffice has some glitches. I know only a few people that run/require a full Office Suite. M$ Office has market share despite their security issues. I just wanted a lite secure (non M$) app that would open all file types and permit basic editing & allow me to create a (all be it simple) compatible Office 2003-2010 file.
Geez, I sure want allot for free ;-)))
Regards
bjm-
Thank your neighbors / neighbours
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Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 14th Aug, 2010 14:10
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Last edited on 14th Aug, 2010 14:24
Hello bjm ,

We think so , about the Office File types/thingy's . What colour are they ?? :))

Sorry not very technical on this side of pond/land mass .

It seems to me that "Abi" is based/hosted at Utrecht University and is very "open source/linux help yourself developers if you need to look under the hood" . So you might need to pack your hiking boots and go talk with the ancient kings in the Mozilla Mountains !!

UU dates back to the Middle Ages so they probably have much in common with the MZ kings ; this is also happening and may be letting the daemons roam free :-

http://www.uu.nl/uupublish/homeuu/homeenglish/1757...

Take care

Anthony + bisous***

PS : the Impress* bit of Open Office (the Beta version 3.3 is public) would do all you need , it's mostly all I ever need - it's not (French) baby sized .

EDIT* ; it's now renamed as "text document" - not sure how it is modulated .

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 14th Aug, 2010 17:36
Score: 64
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User Since: 9th Mar 2009
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Location: US
Last edited on 14th Aug, 2010 17:37
Good day Anthony Wells
LOL ancient kings in the Mozilla Mountains LOL

re > OpenOffice...
I have concerns that it sold out (was sold).
I have concerns about Sun & Oracle.
I have some concerns OO is just more than I would ever need or know what to do with... never used a full Office Suite - M$ Works is more my speed...
Seems like open source & Sun do not compute.
I have read > http://www.sunsource.net/why.html

Sun / Java - (I don't need to tell you)...are infamous for insecurities !

As you're familiar with OO.o ... has OO had security issues.

re >Sorry not very technical on this side of pond/land mass .
This side sure ain't no techie savant.
Just need to be able to open an occasional .doc, .docx, .docm, power point, excel file. I don't create em'... (I may with OO). People just send em' to me and I can only open em' with M$ Word Viewer. Might be nice to be able to reciprocate in kind.
So, files created with OO are fully compatible with Office created files. Vice-versa ???
If you reply with Yes to above...and if you advise that OO is not an insecurity magnet. I'd feel better about OO. The size does seem daunting and their community boards do seem alive with issues...but, I'd still feel better about OO if I had some OO users personal usage experience feedback.
Cheers Thnx
bjm-
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 15th Aug, 2010 01:00
Score: 64
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Location: US
Hello Anthony Wells

as to my concerns re Oracle Java etc.
Please see > http://www.itworld.com/open-source/117301/scoracle...
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Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 16th Aug, 2010 22:26
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Last edited on 16th Aug, 2010 22:29
Hello bjm ,

Been a bit caught up this weekend and it's rushing on tonight , so I'll be brief ( ain't you the lucky one :))

1)the Sun/OOo was never a problem . I was worried about an out of date JRE in an early version of OOo and a very big noise waering both hats replied by mail basically that the embedded JRE was not a real problem but that "safe browsing" techniques were more important/paramount to using OOo safely and to be careful what one fed it (and anything else , for that matter ) .

2)That said Sun and Oracle , that does need watching even if they are pushing the Java Dev programme very hard to all Devs these days .

3)OOo is pretty big , I have no speed problem and 1GB ram on XP and acres (hectares) of HDD space , but it is an easily accessible package .

4)You can sign up you to emails on many aspects including warning of a security update , gives an alert and download link 3 to 4 days before publication . You can check but there have been maybe 5 or 6 in the last 18 months , all very well handled . The support is highly rated .

5)I'm told (neighbour) that there was a lot of incompatibility propaganda , especially when the French Gov. went open source , plenty of smoke and mirrors ; everything is currently said to be compatible , but the best place to get advice on your pretty coloured extensions would seem to be the OOo website support/forums:))

Never had the $$'s for Office , always been with OOo , never understood half the posts on here about Office , so quite pleased with myself :)))

I'm off , ask if there's anything else .

Anthony

PS : I know that OOo handles .pps files OK , tho' I have the free PPTViewer from M$..

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 17th Aug, 2010 00:01
Score: 64
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User Since: 9th Mar 2009
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Location: US
Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 00:03
Good day Anthony Wells,
Thanks for chiming in...
same here re $ for Office
same here re M$ Word Viewer w compat pak

Great to get your feedback...
I download/saved OOo ver with Java before I read about non JRE download ver
So, I pulled the non JRE OOo. I already have JRE installed.
Read the Setup Guide and was still unsure as to my options re JRE.
It's the Java platform (as you may have guessed) that has me treading water.
I understand the reasons why and the advantages for OOo to run on a Java platform.
I do not understand why OOo would not be an insecurity magnet.
As we both know Java is known for bugs / holes / etc. and slow to fix.
How is OOo not on the receiving end of Java issues.
I dumped Adobe Reader as you may have...for issues similar to Java issues.
Endless Security holes and very slow to fix.
How do those Security holes not populate to OOo.
I can see that OOo has a huge loyal user base.
What I don't see is why OOo has been immune to the endless Java issues.
The OOo boards don't seem filled with Security problems (as I would have expected)...just users asking "how to" posts.
My resident Security app Community Forum is ripe with posts from users with Java JRE causal malware problems.
I must be missing some basic concept...any comments ?
Thanking you in advance...
bjm-
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thedillpickl RE: Word Viewer
Contributor 17th Aug, 2010 02:19
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Hi bjm & Ant;

I've dabbled very little with OOo. Skimming this thread, went poking around and found this little nugget. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1... Which proves nothing, but these guys obviously are quite familiar with Java in OOo. Apparently the risk is small because Java is used little by OOo. Smaller exposure, smaller risk.

Also, if interested in 'more' features, read about Oxygen Office & Go OO. AbiWord is also mentioned here (bad spell checker?). http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-office-s...


Fred

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Chrome, Firefox, IE8
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consilio et animis
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ddmarshall RE: Word Viewer
Dedicated Contributor 17th Aug, 2010 12:21
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@bjm-

If you only want to create the occasional Office document, you could consider using Google Docs or office.live.com. Then you wouldn't need to install anything on your computer.

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This answer is provided “as-is.” You bear the risk of using it.
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Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 17th Aug, 2010 16:58
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Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 17:27
Hello bjm ,

Fred's link on Java is interesting , since "speaking" to the big noise , I always load the JRE version on the thinking that the embedded programme may be less directly exposed to the bad guys ; but again open an email link or a doc with a Flash image therein and what do I know . On that basis I open .pps email files with PPTViewer 2007 inside Sandboxie ; as I use Gmail and leave most mail in the clouds including attachments , I hope to prevent an exploit from getting in - still a chance though of something skipping out the box or stealing data !!

Here are the Advisories , some overlock SUSE and version 2.x and 3.x are shown separately in one case :-

http://secunia.com/advisories/search/?search=Open+...

Not wishing to be controversial , but I do think that Sun and Adobe are getting there acts together better and they are a huge (easy with some users' security) target - let's hope M$ follow suite (:)) ; many problems have been in getting the PSI rules to match the patches and this has caused part of the confusion .

After some reorganisation , I"ve reduced the target's size on my PC by using the embedded PDF and Flash in Google Chrome and switching from Adobe to Nuance's Zeon PDF reader (free version) .

Google Docs looks promising and opens .pps files , but I'm not up to speed there , so maybe ddm can fill you in on file extensions .

Say how you go .

Anthony

Here is the text of an email that OOo put in my mail box a few minutes ago :-

OpenOffice.org Celebrates Tenth Anniversary at OOoCon in Budapest

The OpenOffice.org Community is turning ten years of age. Launching the celebration of a decade of open and free office productivity, the project's annual conference will take place in the city of Budapest from August 31 - September 3. Organized by the local community, supported by major sponsors and filled with life by a highly engaged, vivid community, the OpenOffice.org Conference (OOoCon) is the premier event for all those interested in OpenOffice.org development, OpenDocument technology and the future of free office software.

Since OpenOffice.org was created in 2000, the community behind the software has shaped a new era of open and free office productivity and is responsible for the creation and adoption of open standards. With studies showing more than 20 percent market share, coupled with an increasing number of governments, enterprises and private end-users taking advantage of OpenOffice.org technology, this year's conference will not only be our annual gathering for developers, adopters, enthusiasts and evangelists, but also the start to well-earned celebrations in local communities around the world.

At the event, attendees will find:
* More than 100 speakers will present their thoughts and visions in four parallel sessions.
* An ODF 1.2 Interop Demo. Hosted by OASIS, the international open standards consortium, the ODF 1.2 Interop will showcase applications processing ODF documents on the desktop, in the cloud and on mobile devices.
* More than 80 presentations will show the variety of the community and highlight worldwide success stories.

"Our team has been working very hard to make this anniversary conference the best OOoCon ever", says Péter Szakál from Open SKM, the team lead for the Budapest organizational committee in charge of hosting the event. "With the help of our sponsors, and with the support of not only the local community, but the worldwide project, we're looking forward to an extraordinary event in the capital of Hungary. Framed by many community events, we're confident that the OpenOffice.org Conference 2010 will be a memorable event for everyone."

"For 10 years, OpenOffice.org has powered millions of users around the world with an award-winning, easy-to-use office productivity suite," said Michael Bemmer, vice president of Oracle Office. "At Oracle, we are proud to be the primary contributor to OpenOffice.org, as well as a Platinum sponsor of this year's OpenOffice.org conference and we eagerly look to passing yet more milestones."

Today, OpenOffice.org is the major open source office suite and one of the largest open source projects worldwide with
* over 43 million downloads of its current 3.2 version
* more than 300 million downloads since the project's creation in 2000
* support for all major platforms
* 10 years of community experience
* more than 90 languages available

This year's OpenOffice.org Conference takes place from August 31 - September 3, at the Central European University in Budapest, with the plenary session being held at the Hungarian Parliament. The event is organized by ODFA Hungary, a nonprofit organization, with support from sponsors IBM, Multiracio, Oracle and in joint cooperation with the worldwide OpenOffice.org community.

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 17th Aug, 2010 17:37
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Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 17:50
Hi Anthony
Thanks for the Secunia link to Open Office. I tried to find same but, must have spelled Open Office wrong ?
As you load the OO with JRE ... does that mean you do not have JRE otherwise installed. Are you not duplicating JRE and how does JRE update embedded in OOo. It's the unknowns re JRE that confuse me.
I read OOo FAQ's that as I already have JRE, OOo with JRE would conflict. ????
And I don't understand what happens to the add JRE option (add JRE during the install of OOo which I guess you don't know as you run OOo with JRE version) when I update JRE outside OOo. I imagined OOo with one ver a JRE and my system with another version of JRE.
Do I uninstall my JRE if I install the default OOo version with JRE.
See, JRE has me all turned around.
As far a Google ... I set up a Gmail account some time back...used it once and now my Gmal account is a magnet for spam. I open it once a month and it's packed with spam despite all the filter attempts. Google anything has not been positive for me as everything Google requires their resident cookies. I've tried Google Docs and just get more spam. If I knew how to close out my Gmail account I would and try an alternate user name. But the Gmail spam is anyusername@anydomain.com. It's really pure spam.
Oh Well
Thanks for all your support
Thought I was sold on trying an install of OOo non JRE and now I'm confused again
Sigh :-((

-----------------------------------
Just read your edit OOo email content >
OK ... sounds like they must be doing something write.
I'm sold again ... all those millions are a persuasive argument !
Now if I could only know for sure if I should install with or without JRE ?
Do I uninstall my JRE if I install the default OOo version with JRE.
See, JRE has me all turned around.
How does JRE update with default OOo version with JRE.
Will Secunia OSI run (requires Java) for example if I only have JRE from OOo.
???
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Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 17th Aug, 2010 18:32
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Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 18:59
I always have Java (freestanding) to visit the Secunia OSI and my bank to name but two .

It would seem that I don't need to download twice these days :-

http://download.openoffice.org/common/java.html

I have downloaded OOo + JRE with JRE pre-existing without problems for me for as long as I can remember . The wizard probably knows not to download twice , but in the past may have updated JRE , can't remember precisely .

I see a small Java file (URE) in my OOo folder and the rest seems to be the usual JRE stand alone , which may well be what gets updated and called upon when you need it . I would only guess that that means that holes in JRE are dangerous to OOo and anyone else who calls on it when it is insecure , with OOo being secure as it stands ; which is probably what the Big Cheese was trying to explain as non-technically as he could to an IT novice such as I was and still am . The OOo programme could still want an old version of JRE loaded as it did in the past , but hopefully that is not likely these days .

So if you want OOo to work in full you will need JRE , but what you can do with it sans JRE may be all you need .

Don't have the knowledge to say more than that ; try it sans first and add it later if it needs it , perhaps ??

Re Google mail , Gizmo reckons their spam filter is the best he knows and I tend to agree , it's a separate box and after a while you can just delete the box contents , in my experience . Just go to A/C settings and you can create addresses to your hearts content . Spam , in my case , is due to people sending me Email "jokes" and by bad practice not cleaning the Email before they send it , SpamPHarmers joy $$ !! Sometimes "a" spam gets thru' sometimes you lose one , i quick read the mailer names to see if anything stands out . I started with Gmail as a novice and am so pleased that I did .

Never found cookies that much of a worry and what they get in comparison to the data the Gov. and other bodies keep on you in their "secure :)))" files . The big Flash cookies are more of a concern but Ff (add-on) , Chrome (Options) and CCleaner clean them out daily .


Anthony

PS : I don't have any "resident" cookies other than "one or two" , really no more , chosen in order to render a website page option .

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 17th Aug, 2010 20:18
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Location: US
Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 20:28
Hey Anthony'
Thnx ever so much for holding my hand...hands across the pond so to speak.
You do not display your location...but, I think I recall UK ?
Don't you just appreciate how great all of the Secunia Community is...
Participating in my small way has always been a privilege.
Hard to find a more gentile, respectful, help a user out bunch of people. Kudos !
As to IT Novice ... your preaching to the choir. ;-)

OK ... try one / try the other... fair enough. I am aware as you write ... "if you want OOo to work in full you will need JRE" & what I can do with it sans JRE may be all I need. Use will tell I imagine how easy it will be to add/subtract JRE from OOo. To change OOo setting options / preferences re JRE
.
So, when your standalone Sun Java JRE updates and migrates to your browser (addons - plugins - extentions) of choice.
Does OOo JRE update & or vice versa.
Are you always somehow running the same ver of JRE inside OOo and outside OOo.
If OOo is closed and I open OSI does OSI call on OOo JRE or standalone JRE.
I have read at OOo re some references to JRE conflicts... and just not sure how to process that maybe outdated info.

-------------------------------------------------- ----------
As to Google... I may be putting up obstacles for Google via my FF addons. NoScript / AdblockPlus and Google Optimizer. All at default settings will block a slew of intrusive google. An Expert Contributor to this venue has commented in passing as to his feeling re google. I may be creating google problems for myself as I imagine google would be happier running in a friendlier environ. But, I seldom whitelist what NoScript / ABP & Google Optimizer would otherwise prefer not to allow. Google is all about gathering data and runs allot of scripts / ads to that end. Just my $.02
Cookies are not an issue for me. I willingly store first party long term cookies that serve my purposes. I know monetizing my activity is just business as usual for everything on the web...but, as google pulls content for free from everywhere...I would want to be paid for and have control over my aggregate data the same as the content providers that want to be paid for and have control over their content & are trying to go after google for payment. Free web content or subscriber web content that's a Topic the big guys are fighting over as you know. I'm just a cog in their great gears of trafficking content.
I believe however that outside the US...web activity is more skewed toward endures protections. The US is not willing to offer protections offered across the pond.
One example is Opt In / Opt Out. US rules are still user Opt Out granting all control of user data to sites. UK (as I read) is now Opt In granting control of user data to users.
So, am I long winded or what ;-)))))
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Anthony Wells RE: Word Viewer
Expert Contributor 17th Aug, 2010 21:20
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Last edited on 17th Aug, 2010 21:34
Hi bjm ,

I presently live in the South of France and is the reason my charming neighbour and her delightful daughter sent you a "bisou" the other day ; or bisous*** as in 3 to alternate cheeks around here , 4 for family but only two in Paris and the North - says it all :))

I think there is just the one Freestanding JRE at any time , irrespective of source download . Have edited this quote :

on 17th Aug, 2010 18:32, Anthony Wells wrote:
I always have Java (freestanding) to visit the Secunia OSI and my bank to name but two .

It would seem that I don't need to download twice these days :

I see a small Java file (URE) in my OOo folder and the rest seems to be the usual JRE stand alone , which may well be what gets updated and called upon when you need it and....and updates when it is insecure , with OOo being secure as it stands ; which is probably what the Big Cheese was trying to explain as non-technically as he could to an IT novice such as I was and still am . The OOo programme could still want an old version of JRE loaded as it did in the past , but hopefully that is not likely these days . Then you'd have two freestanding versions and the PSI would get anxious .

Don't have the knowledge to say more than that ;

Never found cookies that much of a worry and what they get in comparison to the data the Gov. and other bodies keep on you in their "secure :)))" files . The big Flash cookies are more of a concern but Ff (add-on) , Chrome (Options) and CCleaner clean them out daily .


Anthony

.


Concerning Ff , then I understand that Noscript is to lock out javascript exploits - nothing specific Google wise that I know of , Adblock plus I don't need on my settings , but is a must for Google Chrome where it is spot on . Google Optimizer gave me too much hassle in Ff whereas the Google Toolbar runs like a charm without any adds hassle ; even Gmail lets you exclude them . There are no free lunches and AFAIK M$ collects just as much data for commercial reasons , ditto Yahoo etc. - I prefer a little more browsing freedom to too many blocks and controls , so I browse in Sandboxie and Chrome tabs already run each in it's own sandbox , which derives from Google's take over of Green Border , I'm led to believe - also runs fast in Sandboxie , which is real belt and braces (suspenders to you , which are very different to us :)))))).

wr put me on to Netticat's "BetterPrivacy" add-on for dealing with the big Flash cookies which are slightly worrying ;-

http://netticat.ath.cx/BetterPrivacy/BetterPrivacy...

Like they say , put something up on the www and it belongs to anybody and everybody .

All for now , back tomorrow .

Anthony

PS ; YES ; takes one to know one .

--


It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 17th Aug, 2010 23:17
Score: 64
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Location: US
Hello Anthony'
Ah Ha !
Now it hits me as to French text...sorry, went over my head.
Well, all of EU then... I believe is Opt In and just more consumer protective oriented.
The US is more about less regulations which translates to corporations/business writes the rules. Internet crimes are not even classified as a Federal offense in the colonies. While we're over in the sand...the US can be easily brought to a grinding halt by some bad guy hacking into the telecom network or the electrical power grid or a power plant etc. It's so doable...it's not if - it's just when.
Off my soap box...
back to Topic almost ;-)

Better Privacy - run it, a must have.
SBIE - run it, a must have.
Google Optimizer does block Google Analytics & Google cookie UID.
NoScript blocks Google Anaytics
ABP blocks an assortment of Google images and scripts.

My stand alone JRE is update 20 as 21 had no security fixes.
If I pull OOo non beta with JRE - Do I get 19/20/21
As far as you know the OOo with JRE installer will not double install JRE ... is that what you were suggesting.
Would I have to update JRE stand alone as well as JRE with OOo upon next JRE update or I should ask... How do you update JRE stand alone and How do you update JRE parts of OOo ?
I tried AbiWord email again...with same results. Author must be busy. I've read he works on AbiWord when not otherwise engaged in University studies.
Read some User Lists posts from some irate AbiWord users just wanting their posted query to be acknowledged as they never receive an answer.

I'll register at OOo Community and annoy them for awhile

Au revoir




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bjm__ RE: Word Viewer
Member 19th Aug, 2010 01:32
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Location: US
@ Anthony Wells et al

Well, I finally went full bore with OOo w JRE and a full default install. Wanted to experience what all those 100's of millions of happy OOo users have already experienced. Truth be told I pulled w JRE and sans JRE downloads. But, the sans JRE musta' thrown a wobbly cause it just sat there. I poked at it ...but, just no go. So, I went with Plan B.
I had some old .doc & .docx files saved....they just melted like butter into OOo...just like they were old friends. Played with some editing and then email'd em' off to a friend ------
look see what I can do ;-))
Was just like Xmas morning-- me with my new toy

So, just between you and me or is that you and I...
What's with all the kisses.... and French Kisses too !!! oui oui oulala

I'll pick one your messages ... for Accept ...and will put this thread to bed.
Oulalaaaaa...


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